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IN-DEPTH FEATURES
An Interview with Rav Shmuel Deutsch, one of the roshei
yeshiva of Kol Torah and one of the closest talmidim
of Rav Elazar Shach, ztv"l
In the wake of the great void in the Torah world created by
the passing of the Rosh Yeshiva ztv"l Refoel Gartner
and I went to see HaRav Shmuel Deutsch, one of the greatest
talmidim of Rav Shach and one of those closest to him,
to speak to him about the great loss we have suffered. We
wanted to hear from one of his most senior talmidim
about the Rosh Yeshiva's derech in Torah, about the
deep imprint he left on the whole Torah world, which he
created and maintained, and about this world, which was his
whole world.
We spoke about other topics too, but we always came back to
the starting point: the central theme of Torah.
Does the public have a share in the Rosh Yeshiva's Torah,
and what characterizes his special strength?
The Rosh Yeshiva has a special place as far as limud
haTorah and omol haTorah are concerned. His Torah
had a special depth about it, he had a direct approach to the
heart and essence of a sugya. He would concentrate
completely on his learning to the point of literally
divesting himself of his material existence. He would forget
all the rules and conventions of olom hazeh, bumping
into trees and so on, not knowing where he was until the
sugya became clear to him. Once he became immersed in a
sugya he would not relax until he had a clear picture
of it, however long this might take: a day, two days, or
several weeks -- as long as necessary.
Therefore his seforim and shiurim also have to be
studied in depth. If they are studied this way one cannot
overestimate their value in understanding the sugya, as
talmidim can testify.
It is only natural -- and this has been proved in the past --
that people tend to learn the seforim of a rov
more after he has passed away than during his lifetime. There
are several reasons for this from the psychological point of
view, and that is also why many gedolim made a point of
arranging for their works to be printed after their lifetime.
The Rosh Yeshiva invested a lot of effort in his Torah. His
brilliant sevoros are very profound; any slight
deviation means that you have missed the mark. I remember
that some people used to try to put his sevoros into
writing. When he saw them he would sometimes be disappointed,
saying that it was "not the same thing." It is quite
difficult to put subtle and profound thoughts into writing,
to find the precise words to express all the details and
aspects of a topic.
The Chiddushei HaRim once spoke about one of the
gedolim who had written many profound books. He said
that because this godol had tried to hide kabbalistic
ideas within the nigleh, his books are very lengthy,
since he attempts to find words and definitions to give
expression to his thoughts, making the text wordy and
difficult to understand.
Once when I went to see the Rosh Yeshiva, he told me that for
several weeks he had not been able to sleep at night because
of a question he had on the Rambam in Hilchos Avoda
Zorah. I looked at the Rambam and saw that the Kesef
Mishnah asks the same question and also answers it. When the
Rosh Yeshiva noticed my surprise he said, "Yes, there is a
question in the Kesef Mishnah from the words of the
gemora and also an answer, but I want to know why the
Rambam learnt the whole gemora differently, having a
mahalach in the pshat that is different from the
pashtus."
Because of this he became sick for several weeks: "Why did
the Rambam have an understanding different from the
pashtus of the gemora?"
I remember how, when the Brisker Rov was alive, Rav Shach
would travel to Yerushalayim to ask him a question and come
back immediately. Sometimes the journey would take many
hours, in fact almost a whole day would have to be set aside
for the journey, but if there was someone to ask you had to
go and see him.
He would not even always receive an answer. Sometimes he
would come back with a decisive answer from the Brisker Rov:
"I don't know." For the Rosh Yeshiva that was enough, and it
made the whole exhausting trip worthwhile.
Even after he had obtained his heart's desire, a genuine and
correct answer to his question, he would continue analyzing
it again and again until he was convinced that this was what
the Rambam meant.
Once during a shiur the Rosh Yeshiva quoted from the
Galia Masechta by Rav Dovid of Novardok, the rov of
that town, who writes, after having resolved a difficulty in
the Rambam, that the Rambam was now sitting in the yeshiva
shel maalo and saying, "The Novardok rov's explanation is
exactly what I meant."
The Rosh Yeshiva would make special statements in the course
of a shiur in order to increase the cheishek and
taste for learning. For example, he would quote from the Or
Somayach: "This sugya is only to be found here in the
whole of Shas, there is nothing like it anywhere else."
On other occasions he would utter expressions of joy such as,
"This sevoro is worth a million" and so on.
It was not unusual for him to offer a large monetary prize
for anyone who could answer his question, and there was no
one happier than he was when a correct and genuine
explanation was found as a result of the great efforts of his
talmidim.
Did the Rosh Yeshiva tell his talmidim about his
special connection to the Brisker Rov?
Towards the end of his life, during the last few months, the
Brisker Rov would close himself off together with the Rosh
Yeshiva and make a cheshbon hanefesh in his presence.
He spoke to him for many hours about profound topics. Over
the years the Rosh Yeshiva said that during this period he
received instructions and methods of leadership for his whole
life and solutions to most of the problems that commonly
occur.
I remember those fine days when he would come back from
Yerushalayim and repeat with great joy the divrei Torah
he had heard from the Brisker Rov in Yerushalayim. In the
yeshiva he would gather together members of the chabura
and, as if tipsy from the wine of Torah, he would share with
us his booty, with immense joy in a singsong manner. Some of
these divrei Torah were subsequently printed in the
Chiddushim al HaTorah of the Brisker Rov.
It is well known that once when the Rosh Yeshiva was living
in the Kerem neighborhood (near Geulah) of Yerushalayim, he
parted from the Brisker Rov with a big difficulty unresolved.
At two o'clock in the morning the Brisker Rov thought of an
answer. The Brisker Rov asked his son to go to the Rosh
Yeshiva's house to call him to come over to his house so that
he could tell him the answer and he could give his opinion on
it.
His family tried to dissuade him, arguing, "Rav Leizer might
be sleeping already." The Brisker Rov responded as follows:
"I'm sure he's not sleeping. If he would have found an
answer, he would have come back here to share his joy. And
since he has not come back, he must still be delving into the
sugya, expecting us to notify him if we find an
answer."
His son went to fetch the Rosh Yeshiva, and it turned out
that the Brisker Rov was right.
Despite his closeness to the Brisker Rov, the Rosh Yeshiva
was very much in awe of him. I remember when they wanted to
make a big protest on behalf of the Brisker Rov after
somebody had insulted him in the press, Rav Shach rushed to
Rav A. Barzel, who was about to give a speech at the protest
gathering, and shared his feelings of awe with him: "Do you
have any idea about the stature of the person you are going
to speak about?" He made him afraid of [going into] the whole
matter. In the end the whole affair came to an end when the
Brisker Rov himself requested that no protests should take
place.
When the Rov heard daily shiurim from the Rosh
Yeshiva, how far did you get during the zman?
When we learned Bovo Metzia in the winter zman,
we started Eilu Metzios after Chanukah and reached the
sugya of ono'oh by the end of the zman
(according to the notes on the daily shiurim).
Sometimes during the shiur the Rosh Yeshiva would bring
a question from R' Akiva Eiger or the Ketzos HaChoshen or the
Pnei Yehoshua, adding some flavor to them and explaining them
well. Then he would make a comment or add a clarification,
and immediately move on to the next sugya.
I remember how, when we were learning the sugya on
shtoros in Kesuvos 18, the Rosh Yeshiva brought
R' Akiva Eiger's question, expounded on it at length for
about 45 minutes, and then moved straight on. Nowadays there
are yeshivas which literally spend three months delving into
this sugya.
The Rosh Yeshiva would often repeat -- and anyone who wants
to honor him and commemorate his memory must remember how
important this was for him -- that one has to complete at
least a few blat every week. This point too was
connected to his general outlook that we have to follow in
the footsteps of previous generations. As Rav Aharon Kotler
said a generation ago, no talmid chochom worthy of the
name would have come out of the type of limud that is
customary today. The same applies today, since the situation
has not changed.
When bochurim in a crisis came to see him because they
were depressed, he encouraged them to learn with simcha
and clarity, and he told them that it was not so terrible if
they could not grasp all the words of the Rishonim and
Acharonim in their younger years, because otherwise
they would start thinking about other things and stop the
intensity and continuity of their learning.
I remember an avreich who came to the Rosh Yeshiva with
his son who had lost the cheishek for learning. After
about an hour with the Rosh Yeshiva, the fourteen-year-old
boy came out with a smile on his face and his father was
wiping tears of joy from his eyes. The Rosh Yeshiva had
simply taken out a gemora and learnt with the boy for a
full hour, showing him that he was capable of understanding
everything, and so giving him the motivation and desire to
learn.
I once told the Rosh Yeshiva that I was giving a daf yomi
shiur. He was full of joy when I told him this and said:
"Ay, what a pleasure it is to learn gemora with Rashi!
Is there any greater pleasure than that in the whole world?"
In his will the Rosh Yeshiva says, "I have dedicated
myself to the talmidim." How did this express
itself?
His dedication to talmidim was incredible. One
talmid who had been referred by his Rosh Yeshiva was
asked by Rav Shach to come to see him again after Pesach,
because he felt that he needed to be talked to and given
chizuk in emunoh. The bochur's rosh yeshiva
relates that after bein hazmanim the bochur came
to him and told him that Rav Shach had found out his address
in Tel Aviv and, despite his advanced years, had visited him
twice during bein hazmanim!
The Rosh Yeshiva dedicated himself to convey to his
talmidim the correct approach in learning a
sugya. For example, not to start looking at
seforim straight away, but to first mull the matter
over yourself.
So too with regard to all other aspects of life and its
tests. Once, for example, he told me, "A person must live in
a state of `You have elevated us above all other things,' to
be above all other matters, always to be immersed in
learning, making sure that any changes in a person's
situation will not disturb his learning. That is how I have
lived my life, and that is how one has to live."
The Rosh Yeshiva's dedication to his talmidim was not
merely superficial or merely a matter of speech. It was real
mesirus nefesh, taking into account every fine detail,
giving chizuk where needed and assisting a talmid
whenever possible. He once asked me to help him in a certain
matter and said to me, "You know how much I was moser
nefesh for you in the past and be'ezras Hashem I
will be in the future. And so I have the right to ask this of
you, even if it seems difficult or the reason for it is not
so clear at the moment."
I once remarked to him, "The Rosh Yeshiva has not had any
olom hazeh." He responded, "You don't know how true
that is!"
He always lived with the tangible feeling of "who knows what
tomorrow will bring." -- "The next shiur we will give
here in the Yeshiva or maybe in the Yeshiva shel
maalo."
In a certain Yeshiva there was some friction among the
maggidei shiur. One of them came to ask the Rosh
Yeshiva if he should worry about this. Rav Shach replied, "If
you think that the yeshiva needs your shiurim, then
give a shiur, and before each shiur say, `I am
willing to be moser nefesh for the sake of the Torah
hakedoshoh.'"
He said that one of the gedolim of the previous
generation had told him that in his youth he had opened up a
beis medrash and the Alter of Slobodka had told him to
learn for one hour in the Beis Hamussar every day
before going to the Yeshiva. That godol did not fulfill
the Alter's request and when, after a while, his yeshiva was
not successful, he attributed the lack of siyata
deShmaya to not having obeyed the instructions of the
Alter.
Whenever a yeshiva opened up the Rosh Yeshiva would say that
it had to be established lesheim Shomayim, with
mesirus nefesh for the sake of Torah. He assisted and
encouraged new yeshivas, because he felt there was a special
siyata deShmaya for those who establish Torah
institutions and for those who assist them in doing so.
He would say that in each generation there is a special
siyata deShmaya for the leaders of the generation. For
example, the Kovna Rov, HaRav Yitzchok Elchonon Spektor,
would easily find a book dealing with a matter at hand, and
when he opened the sefer he immediately found the place
he needed. So too with regard to public affairs, as soon as
his opinion about a rabbonus or similar matters became
known, the opposing party withdrew immediately. All this we
also experienced first hand with the Rosh Yeshiva.
He once said that every generation had its roshei
yeshiva and rabbonim, its own tzadikim and
gedolim and above them all were individuals who
understood the needs of the generation, and all of them let
them lead [the generation].
"We have become orphaned from our father." Nowadays, orphans
are not very deprived [financially]: organizations, funds,
and activists take care of their needs, but a "father" figure
is still missing, someone who understands their real needs
and would see to them with mesirus nefesh (I have heard
this pshat elsewhere).
I saw the special siyata deShmaya the Rosh Yeshiva was
blessed with. In other places they would call this phenomenon
mofsim. I remember one incident many years ago, which I
was witness to. A yeshiva was going to have a dinner to
collect funds, but it almost had to be cancelled and the
yeshiva was in a desperate financial situation.
In their distress they asked the Rosh Yeshiva if he would be
wiling to send a letter or the like. The Rosh Yeshiva asked
me if a loan would help them. "Or maybe . . ." he thought for
a while and then went to the closet, took out an envelope
with money inside and said to me, "Ask the secretary of the
yeshiva how much money -- exactly -- they need very urgently,
and only afterwards give them as much as they need."
I sat and counted the money. It came to exactly $20,000. I
arranged for an urgent meeting with the yeshiva's secretary,
and I asked him for the exact sum that they needed on an
immediate basis to get them out of their trouble. He told me
to wait a little while, quickly made some calculations, and
said, "$21,000." I took out the envelope and told him to
count the money. He counted out $21,000.
It seems that I was in such a rush that I had counted $1000
too little, but the Rosh Yeshiva had given exactly as much as
they needed! When we went back and told him what had happened
he showed no signs of being amazed. We understood from his
matter of fact response that he was used to such things.
It was some eight years ago when Rabbenu had reached the age
of 100. One day, when the time for Mincha had arrived,
Rabbenu told one of his escorts, "Now I feel at ease. I
couldn't sleep a wink all night."
In response to his talmid's question Rabbenu said that
he had been fatigued for several days, to the point where he
could barely walk, but the doctor who examined him said he
was as healthy as a fifty-year-old man.
"So I thought to myself, `Why am I feeling tired and drained?
It must be my laziness. And this thought upset me all night
until eventually I realized there was no contradiction
between my fatigue and the doctor's evaluation. It could be
that I really am as healthy as a fifty-year-old, but at my
age HaKodosh Boruch Hu takes away a man's strength. I
am healthy, very healthy in fact, but I have no strength. If
so, then I am not so lazy," he said.
When bochurim who had married went to ask his opinion
regarding electricity on Shabbos, he would tell them to be
stringent if they intended to settle in Bnei Brak. "Bnei Brak
follows the Chazon Ish, therefore one should be stringent,"
he would say. In Jerusalem he would tell inquirers that if it
presented a difficulty they could rely on the lenient
opinions.
On one occasion he departed from this pattern. When a
bochur got married and looked for an apartment for sale
in Jerusalem he told him to use gas lighting (lux).
This psak came as a surprise. That talmid was not
known as the type who particularly needs the chumros of
the Brisker Rav and the Chazon Ish.
One of Rabbenu's talmidim asked him to explain the
psak. "Is that really what he needs: a lux lamp
on Shabbos?"
Once again Rabbenu revealed his unique shrewdness, saying,
"You're right. He doesn't need a lux lamp. But under a
lux, he won't read Yediot Achronot."
He went on to explain that he wanted to provide the
bochur with a sense of self-esteem and importance, a
feeling that he, and only he, had been told by the Rosh
Yeshiva not to use electricity on Shabbos. With such a
feeling of importance, it would be difficult and unpleasant
for him to wallow in the muck on Shabbos.
One of the bochurim at the yeshiva suffered from mental
problems. Without his knowledge someone found out that pills
would help him. But the bochur was not aware of any
problem and he could not be told the truth. His friends came
up with an idea: they would grind up the pills and put them
into his tea or his soup. But they had one concern. Perhaps
the bochur would detect the bitterness of the pills and
the plan would fail.
They went to Maran the Rosh Yeshiva and presented the problem
to him. One of them proposed consulting a chemist. Rabbenu
could tell that their plans would become more and more
involved without clear guidance. He asked to see the pill.
He took the pill and placed it in his mouth, feeling it with
his tongue to taste it. Then he crushed the pill between his
teeth, proceeded to chew it and even swallowed. "You can put
it in. He won't notice. It's not so bitter," said Rabbenu,
summing up the results of his personal analysis.
"Sometimes even people who keep mitzvos and even carefully
avoid all aveiros in word and deed may be included
among son'ei Hashem, if their soul is wicked and their
hearts harden when their friends engage in Torah and serve
Hashem and fear Him. . . And even more so if they carry out
their thoughts, diverting their peers from Torah and mitzvos,
because they are son'ei Hashem. Furthermore, people who
envy the honor accorded to righteous, upstanding talmidei
chachomim and are upset at the wreaths of glory that adorn
them or resent the control that they exercise . . . and if
they love the honor received by reshoim and the
latter's rule even if over dust. All of these people are
truly son'ei Hashem and they do not wish Him to be
worshiped and do not seek the holy splendor of fear of
Heaven" (Sha'arei Teshuvoh, Part III, siman 160).
Maran the Rosh Yeshiva once cited this passage in Rabbenu
Yonah, when explaining that personally he preferred the
nusach of Velamalshinim that includes the word
"amcho" ["vechol oyvei amcho meheiroh yikoreisu"
and not "vechol oyvecho"]. He then went on to explain,
"I, myself, am very concerned lest I may one day,
choliloh, be among the `oyvei Hashem,' so why
should I pray for my own destruction?"
Every erev Shabbos he would tovel in the mikveh
in Shikun Gimmel of Bnei Brak. His talmidim noticed
that sometimes he would take cigarettes, a bar of chocolate
or other small gifts. In reply to their query he explained
that he would often start a directed conversation with the
attendant in order to instruct him to encourage his wife (the
balanit) regarding the holy task placed on her
shoulders.
"I am not his boss and nevertheless I give him instructions
and he listens to me. I though that I should compensate him,"
explained Rabbenu.
One of the bochurim from shiur Alef was brought
to Rabbenu's room. He complained that he had not been well
received and that he did not feel comfortable in the yeshiva.
Rabbenu sensed that the bochur might not be suited for
the level of study at the yeshiva and that apparently this
was what was bothering him.
"Are you able to follow the shiurim?" asked Rabbenu.
The talmid admitted that he did not understand them
completely.
From the window one could see the large, impressive yeshiva
building. It was clear that the talmid did not belong
here, but to avoid insulting him, the Rosh Yeshiva had to
present the situation in a way that would not hurt him. He
pointed out the window toward the building and with
compassion in his voice he declared, "See this building? Many
amei ha'artzos have gone forth from there simply
because they lacked your courage. You had the courage to come
and tell the truth. You have saved yourself . . . "
A Governmental "Program" Formulated in Accordance with the
Rosh Yeshiva's Advice
When Amnon Ashuri was the Head of the Housing Department in
the Housing Ministry he was fortunate enough to have visited
HaRav Shach ztv"l in his house to receive advice about
governmental matters. The following is an excerpt from a
letter he wrote not long ago, which portrays his impressions
of these meetings:
*
13th Kislev, 5762
28th November 2001
When I was the Head of the Housing Department in the Ministry
of Housing and Construction in the 80s I had the honor of
working together with Rabbi Mordechai Lasker, who was the
Chairman of the Public Appeals and Exceptions Committee.
Although he was a representative of the public and not a
professional of the Ministry, Rabbi Lasker displayed an
understanding of and sensitivity and devotion to the housing
issue, which is something of a rarity even amongst most
regular Ministry employees.
Without it detracting from his concern for all the citizens
in the country, Rabbi Lasker made a point of telling us about
the unique problems of the chareidi population. The Ministry
listened and provided not inconsiderable assistance to the
chareidi public, without detracting from other population
sectors. Once when we were discussing the issue of payments
to civil servants I asked Rabbi Lasker to organize a meeting
with Rav Shach.
I arrived at the rov's house accompanied by Rabbi Lasker
without any notion of the huge gap between the rov's
greatness in Torah, his immense standing and leadership, and
the modesty of his house and behavior: his apartment was very
small. In this one-room apartment there was a big table full
of books, which was illuminated by powerful spotlights to
help the elderly rov in his studies. There were a few simple
chairs and an old bed in the corner of the room. There was no
living room, sofas or decorations. This was the total content
of the apartment.
The meeting with the rov was scheduled for 1 o'clock and was
originally meant to be devoted to only two topics. However,
we ended up discussing other topics and another meeting was
arranged at which I asked some more questions, the answers to
which astonished me.
The first topic was the Population and Housing Census
undertaken by the Central Bureau of Statistics, which had
been put into cheirem by an important chareidi rov.
Members of the Bureau asked me to intervene with Rav Shach to
have the cheirem lifted, and I acceded to their
request. Rav Shach said that he could not lift the ban, which
had been imposed by a godol beTorah, but he offered his
personal assistance as well as that of his aides in the
discussions about certain changes in the text on the
questionnaires, which would make it possible to reconsider
the topic.
I asked the rov for his opinion on many topics. The most
interesting were education and the settlements.
I knew the rov's opinion about the settlements in advance. He
wanted new chareidi settlements, but only within the green
line. He explained his position during our second meeting.
According to Rav Shach, maintaining the settlements beyond
the green line had no strategic value in view of modern
military technology and the world political order. War and
peace in our region are not dependant on our military might
or the distance to the Jordanian border, but on the political
and strategic considerations of the Great Powers. In his
opinion, therefore, the settlements were inadvisable and he
was unwilling to support them.
The main topic in which Rav Shach displayed an astounding
grasp was a painful issue in those days in the Housing
Ministry after the collapse of bank shares on the stock
exchange in 1982. Until the abrupt drop in share values, many
citizens invested all their savings in shares. Many people
sold their apartments, invested the proceeds in shares, and
after a while managed to purchase bigger and more expensive
properties with the profit made on the shares. However, many
others sold their apartments and invested in shares but lost
their money and were no longer able to buy an apartment with
the little money that remained, which was spent on temporary
rent that became permanent, since there was no possibility of
getting out of this cycle. These people, in their distress,
turned to the Housing Ministry for assistance.
The Ministry in those days had rules for assisting people
without [owned] housing, with overcrowded housing and people
who had been vacated from maabarot (transit camps), as
well as other categories. However, there was no assistance
available for those who had owned apartments and had sold
them. The Ministry's approach, in brief, was that someone who
had acted irresponsibly by trying to make a fortune through
speculative activities that failed, should not turn to the
State for help, since State funds originated from other
taxpayers who had not given in to the temptation to gamble on
the stock market, knowing that the family home was an asset
belonging to their family that could not be put at risk. At
the same time, we on the Public Committee could not stand
aside and refuse to assist families suffering hardship due to
lack of accommodations, even though they had erred in
deciding to sell their apartments.
Rabbi Lasker and I asked Rav Shach for his opinion. The rov's
answer was clear and decisive. He had no doubts about the
matter at all (and this was before the Beilski Committee):
The Government of Israel was responsible for developments on
the stock exchange at the time. The government had encouraged
trading and investments in bank shares. It had represented
the stock exchange as an institution which benefited the
public, and the nation had acted accordingly. According to
the rov, it was the government which had created and
encouraged the public's feverish and speculative activities
on the stock exchange, and it therefore had a responsibility
towards those who had suffered from this process and to help
extricate them from their troubles.
Rav Shach stressed another interesting point in this context:
One of the tasks of the government and its agents is, of
course, to ensure that its citizens have adequate housing,
but it should not use its powers to educate the public on how
to act with its property. From the day a person buys an
apartment, the rov said, it becomes his property and he has
the right to do with it as he sees fit, without any
directives, instructions or conditions from any governmental
authority.
We presented Rav Shach's standpoint to Minister David Levy
and to the Director General Asher Wiener z"l who
approved a special assistance program. We also convinced
people in the Finance Ministry based on the approach of Rav
Shach. Thus a special program of assistance for "Apartment
Sellers of 1982" was born. This program, with some changes
which had to be made over the years, is still in place today.
Several years have passed since our meeting, but I cannot
forget the rov's friendly and kind manner. Despite his soft
tone, his slow speech, and the Yiddish accent, his statements
were easily understood, clear, and unforgettable. Wisdom, as
Rav Shach said about himself, is the ability to learn and the
ability to teach others. The exciting experience of these
meetings with Rav Shach proved the accuracy of this
statement.
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